At the end of his 2015 season, David Ortiz hit his 500th home run.
This dinger heightened discussion of Big Papi’s Hall of Fame credentials, especially
with the announcement that 2016 would be his last season.
And what a last season it was! Ortiz slashed .315/.401/.620 with
38 home runs and 127 RBI. These final numbers cemented his HOF case in the
minds of every Boston sports fan.
The rest of the country? Maybe not so much. After all, no
designated hitter has been voted in, and PED allegations nag Papi’s case.
Zisk
decided to investigate both sides. Arguing the case for Ortiz is Sox
homer Michael T. Fournier, who wrote about Red Sox wives and flipping Roger
Clemens the bird in past issues. Taking the side against Ortiz’s
enshrinement is Zisk co-honcho Mike
Faloon.
Mike: We’re rolling.
Michael: All right.
Mike: I’m going to advocate a position I don’t necessarily agree with,
and I look forward to hearing your response: David Ortiz is no Hall of Famer.
Michael: Why not?
Mike: He rarely took the field, a career DH, for starters. Also, a slug
of a baserunner.
Michael: [Laughs] Not a great base runner. He would steal maybe two bases
a year, and when he stole a base or when he hit a triple, those were great
games. Watching that fat bastard run. [Laughter] So much fun, such a crowd
pleaser. Pitchers would stop paying attention to him and he would get good
jumps and steal bases.
Mike: That’s back with the Twins?
Michael: No, like last year.
Mike: Really?
Michael: He was good for one or two a year, yeah. (Red Sox radio announcer
Joe) Castiglione would have a field day. Just freak out, “Ah he stole a base!”
Mike: That’s how Mets fans would react when Bartolo Colón would get a
hit.
Michael: Oh certainly, yeah.
Mike: But then Bartolo goes doesn’t go into the Hall of Fame, so.…
Michael: I think that Ortiz’s one or two stolen bases a year and his one
triple a year, that’s just icing on the cake.
Mike: And it’s a considerable cake. As a Colón apologist I have to concede
the base running point—Ortiz’s skills on the basepaths were more qualitative
than quantitative: Fournier 1, Faloon 0.
Specialization
and Boston
Michael: If there’s going to be a move by the Hall of Fame to accept the
steroid era as just another era,
then era of specialization should be taken into account as well.
And it already is, right? There are closers in the Hall of Fame.
Mike: The DH, though terribly flawed, does go back to 1974. That’s forty
plus years.
Michael: And certainly Rivera’s going to be—he’s in. And I expect Trevor
Hoffman to get in pretty soon. It’s a drag that Edgar Martinez isn’t in there
yet, but he’s—we talked about this last night—he’s penalized because he played
for Seattle his entire career.
Mike: I think some of the reservations about Ortiz as a first ballot
candidate are also based on geography and laundry. He played so many years for
such a prominent team and it’s such an obvious choice there’s going to be push
back. There are people like me who think, “Derek Jeter, first ballot? No!”
That’s not based on a logical argument, it’s emotional. Ortiz probably gets
some of that, too, an anti-Boston backlash.
Michael: Right. There’s certainly an emotional argument against every
Boston sports figure. [Laughter] I think part of, in my mind being a good
Boston sports fan involves knowing everybody else’s teams. Because the
perception is that we’re a bunch of jerks. And there’s truth to that but that’s
not all there is. I always wear my hat to the airport or when I travel.
Inevitably some Yankees fan will be like “Ugh, Boston huh?” Expecting me to be
like, “Shut up, khed!” And this year it’s super easy, the Red Sox are having a
good year. But Aaron Judge is awesome.
Mike: Gary Sanchez is likeable, too.
Michael: Gary Sanchez, yup.
Mike: The current Yankees are harder to root against. Another thing
about Ortiz is that he’s one of the few Boston luminaries to leave town on good
terms with the team and the fans.
Michael: Right. Yup.
Mike: They ticked off Nomar by pursuing Alex Rodriguez, and then traded
Nomar in the middle of a pennant race. Mo Vaughn’s name was dragged through the
mud before he shipped out. Ted Williams famously not tipping his cap on his
last Fenway home run. Ortiz broke the mold, his stock just continued to rise,
which led me to wondering who’s the last athlete of color to be on that level
in Boston? Certainly not Pedro or Manny. Do we go back to Bill Russell?
Michael: Well, Bill Russell was never accepted here.
Mike: No?
Michael: Someone broke into his house and took a shit on his bed.
Mike: I never knew that. I thought he was well-liked.
Michael: They never stole anything. They just went in and took a shit on
his bed. Like, “Know what your place is.” Brutal. I wonder if Ortiz gets a pass
because he’s Hispanic instead of African American. There’s some African-
American Patriots specifically, who get notice. Malcolm Butler had that great
interception which iced the Seahawks Super Bowl. But that’s not a longstanding
career. The Celtics just signed Gordon Haywood, and he’s a white dude, so he’s
going to have an easier time being accepted here. The scuttlebutt is that there
is no racism in Boston; there obviously is. It’s a factor. Which I think is why
David Price is having such a hard time. It’s way easier for white pitchers to
come to Boston and be accepted than black pitchers. Or black players in
general. I can’t think of any African- American player, or player of color,
who’s had a sendoff like that. Maybe Paul Pierce. He signed a one-day contract
with the Celtics to retire and they’ll put his number up. Kevin Garnett gets a
pass. Ray Allen does not get a pass because he went to Miami. But then, Roger
Clemens and Wade Boggs went to the Yankees to get their rings.
Mike: Going back to the quantitative/qualitative dynamic, the DH could
be around for another 45 years and it’ll still suck. On the issue of DHs in the
Hall of Fame, and this DH in particular, I have to claim this point: Fournier
1, Faloon 1.
Chronology
Mike: What are your first memories of him Ortiz with the Red Sox? Were
you rooting for him early on back in, what, 2003?
Michael: 2003.
Mike: So he was there for the Aaron Boone home run.
Michael: Theo (Epstein) was doing a bunch of stuff. Like, he did closer
by committee instead of having a closer at the beginning of I want to say the
2002 season, 2003. They lost their first game because of the closer committee.
Brandon Lyon gave up some huge dinger to the Devil Rays, I think. And there
were so many position dudes in the mix that were not big pieces. Millar broke
his contract with some Japanese team to sign with the Sox. , Bill Mueller nobody
knew. There was Jeremy Giambi, Shea Hillenbrand. There was a log jam at first.
They finally jettisoned Hillenbrand for Byung Hung Kim in 2003 and that freed
up a spot, then Ortiz started coming on. I saw his first Red Sox walk-off.
Mike: You were there?
Michael: Yeah. It was an Orioles game. The Sox were down 5-2 in the ninth
and Todd Walker hit a three-run homer and Fenway just freaked out. Everyone
just lost their shit. Kim pitched a clean top of the ninth and Ortiz hit one
out. So, I was there. I was like, “These dude’s gonna do it, he’s pretty good.”
I definitely remember that. And in the 2003 ALDS he hits the walk-off home run
after Vlad Guerrero hits the grand slam to tie it. I think it was 6-2, Guerrero
hit a grand slam and then it’s 6-6 and Guerrero is like, “No, fuck you.”
[Laughter] Ortiz hit one out and we were all watching at the Silhouette in
Allston and all freaked out. We got Brazilian barbecue after that. Like, “This
is the best!” He’s awesome. Ortiz just started coming through in 2003 and then
2004. Those back to back games, Game 4 and Game 5 of the ALCS, were eleven
hours. Just complete exhaustion. But he was the best. He was great.
Mike: I’m in favor of factoring in post-season performances and concede
this point: Fournier 2, Faloon 1.
Jordan
and Pippen and Milton, rememberin’
Mike: Manny Ramirez was the other big bat in that line up. Were they
seen as equals or was it more of a Jordan/Pippen thing?
Michael: That’s a good question. Ortiz was the set up for Manny.
Ortiz was hitting third and Manny was hitting fourth. Manny was brilliant. I
mean he certainly smoked weed in the Green Monster between innings and he cut
off throws, like that famous time when Manny dived to catch a cutoff throw made
by Johnny Damon. So funny. But he would swing and miss at a pitch in April so
that in August… Mussina would be like, “I shut him out in April on this knuckle
slider” and Manny would just sit on it. He would plant seeds and wait on them
to blossom months later, it was awesome. So he was really good. But Ortiz was
the hero of the Yankees series. And Manny was the MVP of the World Series but
nobody remembers that.
Mike: That series was anti-climactic.
Michael: I can’t remember much honestly about the World Series. I remember
the 11-9 first game, Wakefield was just serving up pork chops.
Mike: Like softball, yeah.
Michael: Bellhorn hit home runs in three different games in a row, Game 6
and Game 7 of the ALCS, Game 1 of the Series—I remember that. I remember that
Jeff Suppan got picked off at third. But I don’t remember much about the World
Series. I don’t remember Manny’s role in the World Series. I just know that
they won because of Ortiz.
Mike: The Ortiz legend came to fruition pretty quickly then, didn’t it?
By year two, if not sooner, he’s already Big Papi. Any sense of when he
acquired that nickname?
Michael: I think it’s a dick joke.
Mike: The Milton Berle of MLB?
Michael: Or the Iggy Pop of MLB, yeah. He put it down on the table so
often. Like yup, I’m going to come through right here, you know. I don’t have
any evidence for that but I’ve been under the impression that it’s just some
colossal dick joke that’s been pulled on everybody.
Mike: On the subject of nicknames and their back stories, I concede another
point: Fournier 3, Faloon 1.
Nine
Lives
Mike: There were certainly a lot of those kinds of nicknames at that
time. He also seemed to have nine lives as a player. He would have a dip, miss
games because of an injury or have a slow start. Then the next year, he’d find
his swing again. He kept coming back. It was remarkable to watch him do that.
Michael: I think the first full baseball season I was in Orono, 2009 I
think, the assumption was just that he was done.
Mike: He was toast.
Michael: Because he didn’t get a home run until May or something like
that. Awful, you know. And then with the Bobby Valentine year.
Mike: Oh I forgot about that.
Michael: The whole team just gave up. That was Jon Lester’s worst year.
Mike: What year was that?
Michael: 2012. Everybody hated Bobby Valentine.
Mike: That soured quickly.
Michael: He talked so much shit. He was ragging people up and down during
spring training.
Mike: With the Mets he would do weird stuff publicly, and it would draw
attention to him but away from players. It may not have made sense immediately
but there was a logic to it. Was Ortiz in the crosshairs with any of that or
was he one of those guys who went to management like, “Valentine’s messing
up everything”?
Michael: He would do some dumb shit. He smashed the phone in the dugout,
and they gave it to him as a retirement present last year and he was visibly
nonplussed. He got in fights sometimes, he talked about getting traded to the
Yankees sometimes. [Laughs]
Mike: I never heard about that.
Michael: He just knew what buttons to push. “Fuck this, man, the Yankees
are going to respect me.” [Laughter]
Mike: Did those things dent his image or were fans pretty consistently
in his corner?
Michael: Everyone wanted him to do well. I think everyone always wanted
him to come back and be the same guy. Certainly in 2013 he was the same guy.
The Red Sox, nobody thought they were going to win in 2013. In 2004 everybody
hoped they would but following 2003 it was like what bad bounce is going to
screw it all up this time. 2007 it was kind of a foregone conclusion. And in
2013 it was the Boston Marathon bombing that did it. Ortiz cussing in front of
forty thousand people and the FCC being like, We understand, it’s okay. Nobody
else could have gotten away with that. Maybe Pedroia could have gotten away
with that. But since it was Ortiz…
Mike: That’s right. His hitting in that series was otherworldly.
Michael: Yeah, the Sox were dead in the water against the Tigers. Anibal
Sanchez almost no-hit them the first game and that second game was Scherzer and
they put in Benoit. Ortiz hit it out on the first pitch. They were dead. It was
going to be them going back to Detroit down 2-0. And that grand slam, with the
security guard in the back. Whenever we get a house that image will be framed
in my office. That was an amazing moment. Then he hits .688 in the World
Series. Metheny kept pitching to him. They tried shifting and he would beat the
shift. Amazing.
Mike: I concede two more points. One for the remarkable last year he had
on the field. The other, which I forgot to acknowledge earlier in the
conversation, for going out as a beloved figure in Boston. Is that 5-1?
Michael: Yep.
Fame
Mike: I read something somewhere, I forget the writer’s name, he
emphasized the “Fame” part of the Hall of Fame equation. And by that measure,
Ortiz is a lock. He’s one of the most prominent players of his era. It’s more
complicated when you consider the numbers but in terms of fame, recognition,
he’s in. My kids are Mets fans but the name David Ortiz, Big Papi, is on par
with Henry Aaron in their minds.
Michael: So you have the fame aspect, he’s good.
He’s a famous dude. But the argument is his numbers don’t stack up. Edgar’s
numbers are really good. He’s penalized you know. If he had won a ring, people
would be like, “Oh, Edgar Martinez.” But he’s just a DH. Then the allegation of
steroids is dogging Ortiz, too. And he says he passed every piss test after 2002
or something like that. I don’t know how to feel about that.
Mike: Is that what they kind of imply, that there was something in
2002?
Michael: There was an unofficial test.
Mike: I think it was just that his name came up. But I was reading
something the other day—I need to take better notes when I read—where there
were more names mentioned than there were tests administered, so it couldn’t be
that every player who was named had actually violated something. Hard to say.
Getting back to the numbers, he crossed the 500 home run barrier and he hit
like a madman in 2016.
Michael: He was awesome. I watched the numbers and then in 2015 I thought
well, maybe he’ll get to 500 home runs this year. If you account for decline,
maybe not. If he’s totally on fire, he will. And we were at McCarthy’s (in
Belchertown, MA) and we saw 499 and 500 in the same game, which was totally
unexpected. And then last year he had a great season and padded it to what it
is, like 541, I think. He got a lot last year. The difference between 500
and 541 is huge.
Mike: He passed a lot of big names along the way.
Michael: The list changes so often now it’s hard for me to keep track of
which old-timers he passed. Ted Williams was 521. Ernie Banks, Ted Williams. He
passed them. Reggie Jackson has like 563. Schmidt has about that many. And when
I was little and into baseball those guys were big. Luminaries.
Mike: Big names to be sure but I think his home run accomplishments are
included in the previous section. I say the score holds at 5-1.
Michael: I can live with that.
Chet
and Eppa/Sting and Ichiro, rememberin’
Mike: Home runs are one thing. A stat like OPS+ encompasses much more
and Ortiz is sixty-ninth all- time. He’s ahead of A-Rod, Duke Snider, Reggie
Jackson, George Brett, and Tony Gwynn. That’s hard to dispute.
Michael: But then…. [Laughter]
Mike: But then if you look at WAR, which encompasses even more, he’s #231
all-time. Right behind Chet Lemon…
Michael: [Laughs] Ah you’re killing me.
Mike: ….and just ahead of Eppa Rixey, who pitched for the Phillies and
the Reds.
Michael: Ah Eppa Rixey.
Mike: Maybe the argument is that Chet Lemon deserves gets greater
consideration. Eppa Rixey, I don’t know. [Laughter]
Michael: Where’s Eppa?
Mike: But still, how many players are in the Hall of Fame? If you come
in at 231 without the benefit of defense or base-running, is that hall worthy?
Plus the entertainment factor.
Michael: That’s why it’s fun, right? There are players, like Ken Griffey,
Jr. who everyone agree on. Everyone agreed he should be in there. There are
always going to be like the seven dudes like, “I’m never going to vote anyone
in unanimously.” There are players like that. Pedro Martinez. Greg Maddux. The
fun cases are Jack Morris, Jim Rice, or Bert Blyleven, where it takes them
fourteen or fifteen years. Tim Raines.
Mike: Perfect example.
Michael: Where the stats change. But just in terms of not using advanced
metrics, Ortiz’s numbers and playoff contributions and his contributions to the
game put him in. And I think the advanced metrics have value but divert his
case a bit.
Mike: Depends which side of the coin you want to look at, there’s one
way that it helps and one way that it hurts.
Michael: But with Tim Raines it’s great, advanced metrics. Jonah Keri
specifically, the advanced metrics on Raines.
Mike: Walks, runs scored.
Michael: And it’s funny because Wade Boggs, if we had been paying
attention to advanced metrics when he was playing he would have had even more
value. Tony Gwynn, slap single hitters or whatever. On base percentage and OPS,
you assign those to Boggs and he has even more value.
Mike: Anything beyond classic back-of-the-baseball-card stats, batting
average, home runs, RBIs.
Michael: Making it easy for Ichiro to get in. He was a shoe-in anyway
because he’s got more hits than Pete Rose does.
Mike: And Ichiro goes by one name, like Cher or Sting.
Michael: When you say Sting you mean not the guy who was the singer of
Police, the other guy named Sting. [Laughter] That’s my stock joke whenever
Sting is mentioned. One of my bandmates who was 22 was like, “I looked it up,
man. , Sting is the same guy who was in the Police.” Yeah, that’s the
joke. “Oh.”
Mike: Chet Lemon and Sting and advanced metrics. I think that makes it Fournier
5, Faloon 2.
Stoli
Vanilla and Diet
Michael: Me and my buddy Ned had a standing bet
that if Ortiz ever got traded or released and signed to another team we had to
spend a night drinking nothing but Stoli Vanilla, which is the worst concoction
on Earth, until we blacked out. That was our standing thing. If Ortiz gets
traded or released, we’re going to show our displeasure by blacking out on
Stoli, the worst punishment we could think of. Maybe we’ll put some diet soda
in there, like Stoli Vanilla and diet. At the end of last year we were like, Do
we have to do the Stoli Vanilla and diet thing? No, we missed that bullet.
[Laughter]
Mike: That’s a frightening proposition and has nothing to do with Ortiz
directly but the sheer misguided audacity merits something. What’s our final
tally?
Michael: 6-2.
Mike: I can live with that. I still don’t think he’s first ballot timber
but look forward to his mug enshrined in Cooperstown.
No comments:
Post a Comment